Articles and Interviews

Here is a selection of articles and interviews about Roger and Zapp

Interview with Roger (February 3rd 1996)

Q : When did you first start performing with a band, cos' we heard that you had one called Roger & the Veils, & also Roger & the Hungry People.

ROGER TROUTMAN : Yeah, actually between the age of 10 to 15, these were the names of my high school bands : Roger & the Veils. In fact Little Roger & the Fabulous Veils. That's how I really got started. Even back then Lester performed with me. After that I tried to diversify & make more money & I changed the name of the group to Roger & the Human Body & of course that evolved into what we 're dealing with now which is the group Zapp.

Q : Were there any recordings made by those early groups?

ROGER TROUTMAN : No. Huh, in fact one little single but you know. I can't even remember the name of the label but it was a local thing. It was such a long time ago!

Q : In 1976 you recorded your first LP, Roger & the Human Body : Introducing Roger. Who were the players in the band?

ROGER TROUTMAN : There was Bobby Glover, Beverly, Lester, that's the best I can remember.

Q : Why was the name of the band & the name of the album changed when it was reissued on the Soulciety label? And how did you get connected with the label?

ROGER TROUTMAN : Well my brother Larry, who's my business manager, was approached by Soulciety Records & they made a deal. But that's such an amazing act of God! In 1976 when I recorded it, I had no idea that it would resurface some 17 years after that. Very very heavy!

Q : You recorded 'Love TKO'(the great Teddy Pendergrass song) with The Human Body for the same label. Are there any plans for more songs or an album, or was this just a one off?

ROGER TROUTMAN : That was just that. It came and went.

Q : You mentioned your brother Larry, what about your other brothers? Isn't there another one named Rufus? And do you have any sisters?

ROGER TROUTMAN : In the beginning in our minds it seemed like we all should try to be stars. Solo albums & stuff. After a while we started to realize that what we needed to do was concentrate on me. We all thought that I could be like an enterprise, & we could make money & do the records. We aimed our focus at one thing. And it worked out so much better. Lester now does all the booking, & takes care in making sure everything goes from one point to the other in terms of geography, Terry is in charge of road managing, Larry is making sure that everything stays intact legally & financially. Then Rufus, well, he takes care of our construction company back in Ohio. That's all his baby. And I have just one sister. Her name is Loretta. She works under Rufus. She's a licensed electrician She never cared about singing. She always wanted to be in electronics. Like a tom boy so to speak.

Q : You did a lot of outside productions. Whatever happened to New Horizons?

ROGER TROUTMAN : They did two records with CBS & then their contract dissolved. The band split-up but Bart just came along with me. He decided that he wanted to pursue his musical carrier. He's been working with my group ever since. Very dedicated soldier-type comrade musician.

Q : What about Shirley Murdock?

ROGER TROUTMAN : I did three records with Shirley for Elektra Records & then she became disanchanted. She felt that she wasn't receiving the kind of attention she wanted, because Elektra was so big. So we decided to take her from Elektra & signed her to Warner Bros. That's where she's at now. I'm presently working on her new record at the moment.

Q : Any release date foreseen?

ROGER TROUTMAN : Well, as soon as I can stop playing Germany, Japan & doing interviews... (laughs) No, I'm just working on it slowly, but Shirley is a dynamic singer.

Q : Now how about Bobby Glover?

ROGER TROUTMAN : Bobby actually is featured on 'Love TKO'. But basically Bobby got to the point where he was getting older & he got tired of all the travelling & he just decided, enough is enough, & he's just staying home raising his kids. He's a football coach. In fact he was a football star when I first met him. So he's gone back to his first love. But I'm planning on bringing Bobby back to work for me cos' he's a great friend & a great singer, very dedicated.

Q : Are you still in touch with Ray Davis?

ROGER TROUTMAN : Yeah. I spoke to Ray in November, & he told me that he had just been diagnosed with a throat cancer. Last I heard he was pretty sick. He was singing with the Temptations for a minute (He had taken Melvin Franklin's place after he passed away at the beginning of 1975). It's just a sad thing. I had to hang up the phone. I didn't want to deal with it. I don't want to think about that.

Q : And then the last ones are Dick Smith, Sugarfoot (from the Ohio Players), & Jesse Rae.

ROGER TROUTMAN : Jesse Rae, I'm just not sure. He kinda like vanished. he did a record with me, we had a lot of fun, it was very interesting. As far as Sugarfoot, I'm talking to Sugarfoot right now cos' I want him to do a cameo appearance on my next record. So Sugarfoot will resurface. As far as his solo carreer, I'm not sure. You can never tell what's gonna happen in this business. And Dick Smith is in Washington D.C . Basically his contract dissolved. But producing takes a lot out of you so after doing all these acts, I just sayed to myself « Stop, that's it, I'm through just for a minute, just let it be. » I just needed to regroup. But what's odd is that lately, in the past couple of years, specially right now, a lot of hip-hop artists have been sampling my music. But quite a few have come to the realization that what they would want me to do is for me to do some songs for them. For instance there's a group called E-40 in the Bay Area who approached me to start a record from scratch. They had me produce a song for them called 'Scandalous' which is a take off from ' Computer love'. And it seems to be doing pretty good in the US. And that's something I really expect to get back into. I just looked up & I was back into producing rap groups, instead of them sampling me. And the money comes directly to me (laughs). And Dr Dré & Tupac Shakur approached me a couple of months ago about doing a song with them. And it's exploding right now, doing phenomenal in the US, No 1 video on MTV, & I certainly didn't expect that.

Q : That was one of our questions. Your involvment with rap, from back in the days with EPMD. Any future plans?

ROGER TROUTMAN : Well this is news, you're really gonna be the first ones to print this, because this deal I'm gonna tell ya about, just closed a few days ago. Let me do some history first. I also did a song with Snoop Doggy Dog. Snoop has a group called LBC (Long Beach Crew). I did a couple of songs with them. Then I was approached by Martin Lawrence & these movie producers who were doing a movie called 'Thin line between love & hate', & they wanted me to do a song. So I did a song called 'Chocolate City'.

Q : Is this the Parliament song?

ROGER TROUTMAN : No, nothing to do with Parliament. It's the name of a club in the movie. Then they asked me to do the cover song with a group called H-Town. So I did a remake of 'Thin line between love & hate' with H-Town & Shirley Murdock. And that's just been released in the States, & I understand that it 's only been out a week & it's selling like mad, so it seems like it's gonna be a big hit. And once I did these two songs, the producers asked me to score the whole movie. You know the dramatic parts & stuff... (He starts singing) which is a great challenge. And we just finished that, & Martin Lawrence is very happy with that. So that was the history of what's happening now. What I just did is I put together a deal with Warner Bros. Where I'm gonna do another Greatest hits album, but, it will feature 4 new songs & then the H-Town song will be on this record, probably 'California love' from Tupac also, & the LBC song will be there too. Also there'll be a snippet of everything that I scored. So it'll be kind of a unique thing that you can only get when buying this record with four new songs. We have a lot of hopes. It'll probably have the long versions of 'Do it Roger', 'Grapevine...', some little extras thrown in as incentives. And think about it I may also put some of this stuff too. (He's talking about the CD-Single from the 1976 LP on Soulciety that Genius brought with him) I am also going to do two or three jazz selections on this album Greatest Hits No2. So it'll have a wide variety, which is a good idea, what do you think?!

Q : Great! Specially with the long versions. You have covered a lot of classic soul songs in the past like 'Grapevine...', 'In the midnight hour'. Which other favourite of yours would you like to do in the future? You once said in an interview, you wanted to do 'Knee deep'.

ROGER TROUTMAN : Yeah, I wanna do that. I've come to understand (I'm not a religious freak) that God is the Master, all glory comes to God; so what I'm thinking about right now is do a funky Roger-type version of 'Oh happy days' (He starts to sing a slow groove, imitating a computerized rythm!) (laughs) with the Mississippi Mass Choir on background vocals & a couple of guttural singers in the front like Dick Smith to do the lead part. And I'm also going to do a very funky Roger-type version of 'Livin for the city' (The great hit from Stevie Wonder) with a very hard street type of rapper. (He starts to rap) Both of those songs will be on this next Greatest Hits. But there maybe some more cover versions as well, cos' I've been contacted by another record company to do a whole album of songs, remakes, that would be called 'History of R'n B'. I would put together singers like Mary J. Blige & Shirley Murdock on one song, & Eddie Levert (O'Jays) with Johnny Gill (ex-New Edition) & do classic R'n B songs that everybody would like. You'd like Coolio & Kurtis Blow on a song like 'Beauty is only skin deep'. But I'm dreaming down the road...

Q : How would you explain to someone who sees you for the first time the use of the talkbox? And is it the same device called voice bag, that was used by some guitar players from the 70's?

ROGER TROUTMAN : Yes it is the same thing. It was made famous by Joe Walsh (From the Eagles), and by Peter Frampton, & by Joe Perry (from Aerosmith), & I would describe this thing as 'African robot'! 'A ghetto robot'! (Laughs)

Q : We don't see anymore of these talk boxes, So is there someone who's taking special care of yours, cos' it must be hard to keep it in playing condition?

ROGER TROUTMAN : Good question! Great question! Lester & I studied how the first company made one. We studied what the parts where, & we built our own. So there's nobody to maintain it but us & it is very very difficult to maintain. It's a constant headache! That's why I have two on stage so that I can switch if one breaks down. And there's two mechanisms within each one. So it's definitely a problem.

Q : What aout the 'Max Axxe' which you claimed getting from the Mothership in your song?

ROGER TROUTMAN : Actually it's a true story. This was back in 1978. Bootsy had bought this guitar synthesizer. The first one ever made. Very bulky, very cumbersome, very hard to work, very new! He had bought one, & he couldn't get much sound of it. So he gave it to me as a jpgt, so I took it, I worked it & I wrote this song about it & I called it the Max Axxe, the maximum guitar. And it came from the Mothership. Bootsy gave it to me.

Q : In connection to that, what's the state of your relationship with George Clinton now?

ROGER TROUTMAN : We're the best of friends. It's difficult to elaborate on such a strange situation. I have nothing but love for George. We came from the beginning, and then we had some legal turbulence, but we hashed it all out & got everything straight. It's just difficult in this business. Money money money...

Q : How did Bootsy get involved in producing the first Zapp LP?

ROGER TROUTMAN : Well it's kind of a two-sided story. The first part was we grew up as kids, rivalry in playing the battle of the bands or talent shows. But then the second part, I was playing in a club in Ohio, and Bootsy's brother, Catfish, came to one of my shows. He was so impressed that he went back & told Bootsy «Look, we got to sign this guy up ». So the next day, Bootsy called & asked me if I wanted to come to Detroit & do some recording. Of course I said 'Definitely! ' One thing after another, now you're looking at it. My life is a dream come true. A DREAM COME TRUE. So many blessings from God. To still be in the business after 20 years, & having the whole rap community embracing my sound & recycling it. When I did the stuff with Dr Dré & Tupac, there were a lot of young rappers around, & they were looking mean (He imitates their style of walking!) but they would come up to me 'Hi, Mr Troutman'. That's just a great feeling cos' they've got so much respect for the music, & for what I stand for, & the longevity. It's a rare thing in this business. The artists are like milk in the desert. It's difficult to last long, it's very tricky.

Q : Why was the band called Zapp, since it's your brother Terry's nickname?

ROGER TROUTMAN : One day, I had just finished 'More bounce', I was talking to George Clinton, he said « I've got Parliament, I've got Funkadelic, I've got two groups. Listen, I want to take you & use the name Roger & the Human Body & get you a contract with CBS records. But let's take this record 'More bounce ' & take it to Warner Bros. under another name. » I thought that it was a great idea. I was trying to think of a name. My brother was standing there & his nickname seemed to work with the sound of the music.

My History and Credentials by Roger Troutman

MY HISTORY AND CREDENTIALS

GOLD AND PLATINUM ALBUMS

ZAPP I

ZAPP II

ZAPP IV

ZAPP- ALL THE GREATEST HITS

ROGER - THE MANY FACETS OF ROGER

ROGER - UNLIMITED!

ROGER - ALL THE GREATEST HITS

SHIRLEY MURDOCK - SHIRLEY MURDOCK
PRODUCED BY ROGER

H-TOWN - THIN LINE SOUNDTRACK PRODUCED BY ROGER TROUTMAN

NOTE: MY WORK IS FEATURED IN AN INFINITE NUMBER OF RECORDINGS AS SAMPLES, WHICH HAVE SOLD IN EXCESS OF 50 MILLION COPIES

TOURING HISTORY WITH THE GROUP ZAPP

- We've Played Every Place WIth Everybody
- We Play At Any Time We Have Never Missed A Show and We Always Show Up on Time
- We Have A Great Show (Some Say The Greatest)
- We Are Always Professional
- We Respect Each Venue. Every Promoter And All Fans

Recordings That Charted Top 10 on the Billboard Charts

1. More Bounce To The Ounce
2. Zapp
3. & 4. I Heard it Through The Grapevine/So Ruff So Tuff
5. Many Facets of Roger
6. Dance Floor
7. DooWaDifty
8. Zapp lI
9. I Can Make You Dance
10. Heartbreaker
11. Zapp Ill
12. Computer Love
13. I Want To Be Your Man
14. Roger Unlimited!
15. All The Greatest Hits
16. As We Lay - Shirley Murdock (Roger Troutman. Producer)
17. A Thin Line Between Love & Hate - H-Town (Roger Troutman. Producer)
18. It's In The Mix
19. Go On Without You - Shirley Murdock (Roger Troutman, Producer)
20. Husband - Shirley Murdock (Roger Troutman. Producer)
21. In Your Eyes - Shirley Murdock (Roger Troutman, Producer)
22. California Love -
Collaboration With Tupac Shakur, Dr. Dre
23. Click My Bic - With Sun
24. Shirley Murdock - Shirley Murdock


NOTE: I HAVE BEEN SIGNED TO ONE GLORIOUS RECORD COMPANY FOR 18 YEARS AND COUNTING, WARNER BROS. RECORDS.

The Day The Funk Died (Master of the Talk Box) by Rev. Keith "Songlife" Crenshaw

To All My Friends, Family, and close Associates:
I'm gonna need you to patient with me on this one. They say writing is great therapy. This is my homage to one Mr. Roger B. Troutman, who passed away from this life on April 25th 1999. For those who don't know who he was, Roger was one of the greatest funk musicians to walk the planet, second only to George Clinton and/or James Brown, both of whom he deeply loved, respected and admired. Most folks don't know he was a multi-instrumentalist, playing the bass, keyboards, guitar (he could play rings around Prince or "0+>", whatever his name is now) but made popular that gadget from the early 70's, the Talk Box. Roger had mastered the Talk Box, like no one has and ever will. Stevie Wonder, Peter Frampton, and a host of other artists may have toyed around with it, but no one brought it to the forefront like Roger did.

Born in Hamilton, OH, a small town outside Dayton, November 29th 1952 to Rufus & Ruth Troutman, Roger has a host of other brothers and sisters, who all became a part of the Zapp sound. Even at the time of this writing, the Troutman brothers have always been a part of Troutman Enterprises, the business end of the Troutman music empire. Roger said he grew up listening to that other Ohio outfit, none other than the Ohio Players, with lead front man and guitarist Leroy "Sugarfoot" Bonner, who himself was & is an outstanding blues/jazz guitarist. The vocal and guitar influence is obvious. Roger was an outstanding guitarist, his blues upbringing was evident on every Zapp album. (Every album had at least one instrumental blues and/or jazz cut, I'd always wished he'd do a jazz album). A lot could be said about Roger's early career, with Dr. Funkenstein & Bootsy, and his former Group The Human Body, but I'll cut right to 1980, my Jr. Hi-School year when I first heard "More Bounce To The Ounce." It was like nothing I heard before. No bridge, no phenomenal melody, just a funky riff with electronic claps turned up to a ridiculous level, a chanking, rhythmic guitar, a rambunctious arrangement....in other words, straight up Funk.

The P-Funk influence is obvious, with George Clinton himself suggesting the Talk Box. At that time, the Talk Box was almost rendered obsolete, but in the hands of Roger, it became another instrument, changing the face of popular black music forever. Other Funk bands, like One Way, cashed in on the Zapp sound later....and with the rise of New Jack Swing, a young upstart named Teddy Riley used an updated version of it called a "Vocoder." I read somewhere also where Roger said he wanted a "country preacher" effect, thus also the use of the talk box. From there came an album about one a year, some with the group name, some as solo projects, with himself just named as "Roger." (My favorites? I'd have to say two albums..."The Many Facets of Roger," and the "Zapp III" album. From 1980 to about 1986, Zapp was unstoppable...long after a lot of bands stopped playing heavy funk...even George Clinton and company. Whenever a Zapp album came out, you knew you were getting that same ol' foot stomping, party-rocking jams that you weren't afraid to sweat to. As the 80's wore on, the face of black music began to change, and the Zapp sound became somewhat quaint. The rise of Hip-Hop and New Jack Swing had forced the band to the background...but only for a while. Enter the early to mid 90's, with sampling technology, and even as of this writing, the Zapp sound is even stronger than ever, with a host of rappers and artists alike teaming up with Roger himself for song collaboration. The first time I saw Roger and Zapp live it was in LA, a small club on Crenshaw called Total Experience. Roger was good for playing very small venues...with him playing guitar in the aisles, taking people's drinks, sitting in women's laps (on more than a couple of occasions I saw Roger put his face in a woman's lap, lick his lips, came up and said, "Ya know, it don't taste too bad!)" It was all in good humor, of course. On one occasion in 1993, Roger came to my hometown Pasadena and played at the historic Raymond Theatre. After the show I took a picture and me with Roger. Unbelievably, he was about an inch shorter than me, about 5'8" but in typical Roger form. Always upbeat, humorous, ready to talk, down to earth, I even caught him asking some teen-agers "did you like the show?" Are you sure?" Geez, how humble can you get? I told him I play a little piano, and he signed my autograph "Mr. Keyboards." To this day, I'm tearing up my house trying to find that photo. That reminds me, the next time you see my Mom, tell her "shame on you" for recording over a Roger interview on BET, for some Oprah stuff....yuck! My sister thought I was off my rocker for going to see the Roger & Zapp show every year, until we all saw him again for the last time at Billboard Live club in West Hollywood. My sister then saw why I ran to see him every time he came to town. In the latter years, in the middle of the show, they would stop and give praise to Jesus, and have the audience give a big round of applause to God. For a few moments, it felt like "choich."

I guess now is a good place to tell you Roger and his brothers owned Troutman Enterprises & Construction, where they'd take run down, ghetto neighborhood apartments, have the tenants move out, re-do the carpet, plastering, plumbing, electricity, you name it, and then have the tenants move back in for the same rent. THE SAME RENT!!! Roger was very community minded, and often supported and invested in projects for urban cities. Unfortunately, the business became bankrupt, and it's my humble opinion that may have had some thing to do with the dispute between him and Larry, his older brother. Pardon the pun, but "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" that Troutman Enterprises had gone bankrupt. and were still in the process of liquidating the assets to pay of miscellaneous bills.

To conclude, I would be amiss not to mention Roger's musical influence on my life, directly and indirectly. Most of my close friends & family know I play keyboards and drums, with my rhythmic influence and approach to music taken directly from Roger (the only other influence that strong is Stevie Wonder, but there's not enough ram on a hard drive for me to get into that!!!!). I'm not ashamed to play Roger's music with my kids, who are 5, 4 and 9 months old. How many times have I put on Zapp on a Saturday afternoon and the whole family starts dancing? Roger is who indirectly got me into DJ'ing. There are some funk jams no DJ doesn't leave the house with, "Atomic Dog" and "More Bounce." So, I finally say farewell to the "Many Facets of Roger": Musician, Master of the Talk Box, Showman, Ladies Man, Son, Father, Brother, Humanitarian, Businessman, Entrepreneur, Friend, Celebrity, Christian, but probably most notably, a bonafied Funkateer.


Dedicated to the Troutman Family, and every Funkateer who believed Roger's music. May Roger Troutman rest in peace, for "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of one of his Saints." -Psalms 116:15

In Sincere Love and Appreciation,
Reverend Keith Andre Crenshaw
April 29, 1999

"Remembering Roger" By Anthony Smith Sr

This is truly a sad time for me. To understand why, I'll start from 1979...

I had just gotten back from Korea. I was in the Air Force. I was stationed in a small town in North Carolina called, Goldsboro. My job in the AF was Police. I met a fellow New Yorker named George. He became my best friend; even till this day. He now lives in N. Carolina. But I go there for vacation constantly and visit him and his family. N.C. was a place that was dull for a couple of New Yorkers that were very active in entertainment. So we tried to start up a group. I play the guitar, among 12 other instruments. George, well, he was New Yorks top male model in the 70's. But I taught him about performing on the stage as a singer. He became a very high profile and energetic singer with the group. We got 7 other people to join and when we got our act together, there was no more military for me. We used to just go all over the world entertaining pepole in the name of The U.S.Air Force. Life was great.

The week that we returned from a 19 city tour immediately pilled the group back into rehearsals. I was a stickler for details. We rehearsed on the base at the recreation center. We were starting to make a name for ourselves. We called ourselves, THE MAJESTICS, after George's old modeling company in New York. Life was good!!!!!

One day while we were rehearsing, an individual came storming in to our private studio offering advice to us. He looked liked a nut!! I asked him what he knows about this stuff, and he told me nothing and looked at me like I was the crazy one and walked out the room smiling. Then these two other guys came in and apologized to us and told us that they were the group to perform here tonight. Well, I know that the groups that the Military hires are a bunch of no talent wanna be's!! So the older one of the two invited us to come and watch for free. So we accepted. We told them that we will offer our expert opinion and lend our help when needed. Besides, how good can they be with that nut in the group?! So we went to the show. And man, let me tell you, that group came out smoking!! But I still didn't see the 'NUT.'

Then they started to play a song and all that you heard was a heavy funk beat with someone playing a serious guitar lick!! I was trying to find the person who dares to play the guitar much better than I can ever imagine. Then the spotlight focuses to the entry way at the back of the concert hall and this guy comes out playing the guitar... dancing ,walking across the seats, flirting with the women, sitting on their man's lap while he kisses them!! And he did all this without missing a lick on his guitar. The crowd was crazy. Then I realized that this was that 'NUT' that I had met only hours earlier. The name of the group was,ROGER AND THE HUMAN BODY. Roger Troutman was the nut that could make any instrument succumb to his control! This guy was great!!! The Group was awesome!! So we hung out after the show. I met everyone. Roger was the leader, Larry Troutman was the oldest and the business manager and percussionist, Lester Troutman was the drummer, Zapp was the baby brother and bassist, Greg Jackson was the keyboardist and singer, Bobby Glover was the lead singer and Janetta Boyce was the female lead singer.

Man, these people were tight. I remember an incident when we were at a show and someone was harassing Larry, and Roger was ready for the Kill. But that's how close they were. You don't mess with Roger and expect Larry to just be silent. You didn't mess with Larry and expect Roger to just be silent. And you didn't mess with any one that was their friend and expect them to just be idle. Whenever they were in town, they would stay with me because they wanted peace and quiet from fame...And with me, they got it. But, fame after 'MORE BOUNCE' was hard in the north. So they played to their original audience in the south. But,by and by,Roger and Zapp were a legacy of determination.


After their first show,I talked to the keyboard player,Greg Jackson,about his home in Cinicnatti,Oh. He said that his mother was so happy that the "MORE BOUNCE" track is really taking off. He said,"...in fact,that record does not even come off the stereo. If any one wants to play another record,his mother says to just put the record on top of MORE BOUNCE. She doesn't want to look for it when she wants to play it. Roger just looked at Greg and shook his head and smiled. I told the guys that I was going to get them to their next show on the Air Force Base in style. Roger asked me what I had planned,I told him that he's going to like it.

So that night, I had to work. I was an MP. When the time came for them to leave I met them outside their hotel rooms on base and gave them the biggest police escort to the show. The guys loved it. When we arrived at the concert hall,we escorted them inside. Roger slapped me five and said,"GO head,MP's!" Then gave us a big smile and asked if we were staying for the show. I said that we don't get off till later. But Greg and Larry said that there's an after party and told us where it was.

When we got there, Greg met us outside. Larry said that they wanted to go shopping the next day and asked if George and myself would escort them. I said sure. We then went inside and partied with the crowd of WHO'S WHO'S in the music business. They introduced me to George Clinton, Larry Blackmon of CAMEO, SLAVE and many other's. These guys were very classy and wild at the same time. But Larry ,Greg, Roger, Bobby, Lester, ,Zapp, and Janetta treated all who came in contact with them with respect.
After we left the party, we went to Burger King then came back to their Hotel rooms, ate, talked, laughed at some wild stories then I crashed on the floor. I told them that I'll see them when George and myself get off then we'll go to town.

Roger and Larry, I miss and Love you guys.
Anthony Smith Sr

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